Is there a non-reg lang L such that you CANNOT prove L non-reg via pumping and reductions?
There are many pumping theorems (one of which is iff so you could use it on all non-reg but you wouldn't want to-- its in the paper pointed to later). I'll pick the most powerful Pumping Lemma that I can imagine teaching a class of ugrads:
If L is regular then there exists n0 such that for all w∈ L, |w| ≥ n0 and all prefixes x' of w
with |w|-|x'| ≥ n0 there exists x,y,z such that
|x| ≤ n0
y is nonempty
w=x'xyz
for all i ≥ 0 x'xyiz ∈ L
If this is all we could use then the question is silly: just take
{ w : number of a's NOT EQUAL number of b's }
which is not regular but satisfies the pumping lemma above. SO I also allow closure properties. I define (and this differs from my last post--- I thank my readers, some of whom emailed me, for help in clarifying the question)
A ≤ B
if there exists a function f such that if f(A) = B then A regular implies B regular
(e.g., f(A) = A ∩ a*b* )
(CORRECTION: Should be B Regular --> A regular. Paul Beame pointed this out in the comments.)
(CORRECTION- My definition does not work. I need something like what one of the commenters suggested and what I had in a prior blog post. Let CL be a closure function if for all A, if A is
regular than CL(A) is regular. Like f(A) = A cap a*b*. Want a^nb^n \le numb a's = numb b's
via f(A) = A cap a*b*. So want A \le B if there is a closure function f with f(B) = A. )
A set B is Easily proven non-reg if either
a) B does not satisfy the pumping lemma, or
b) there exists a set A that does not satisfy the pumping lemma such that A ≤ B.
OPEN QUESTION (at least open for me, I am hoping someone out there knows the answer)
Is there a language that is not regular but NOT easily proven non-reg?
OPEN QUESTION (at least open for me, I am hoping someone out there knows the answer)
Is there a language that is not regular but NOT easily proven non-reg?
Ehrenfeucht, Parikh, Rozenberg in a paper Pumping Lemmas for Regular Sets (I could not find the official version but I found the Tech Report on line: here. Ask your grandparents what a Tech report is. Or see this post: here) from Lance about Tech Reports) proved an iff pumping lemma. They gave as their motivating example an uncountable number of languages that could not be proved non-regular even with a rather fancy pumping lemma. But there lang CAN be easily proven non-reg. I describe that here. (This is the same paper that proves and iff Pumping Lemma. It uses Ramsey Theory so I should like it. Oh well.)
SO, I looked around for candidates for non-reg languages that could not be easily proven non-regular. The following were candidates but I unfortunately(?) found ways to prove them non-regular using PL and Closure (I found the ways by asking some bright undergraduates, to give credit- Aaron George did these.)
{ aibj : i and j are relatively prime }
{xxRw : x,w nonempty } where R is Reverse.
I leave it to the reader to prove these are easily proven non-regular.
To re-iterate my original question: Find a non-reg lang that is not easily proven non-reg.
Side Question- my definition of reduction seems a bit odd in that I am defining it the way I want it to turn out. Could poly-Turing reduction have been defined as A ≤ B iff if A is in P then B is in P? Is that equivalent to the usual definition? Can I get a more natural definition for my regular reductions?





