tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post8087628892689520637..comments2024-03-28T18:17:00.135-05:00Comments on Computational Complexity: ASK THE ALGORITHM!Lance Fortnowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06752030912874378610noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-15579899879807532182011-09-14T00:08:49.171-05:002011-09-14T00:08:49.171-05:00Tskune is exactly right. I don't know how you...Tskune is exactly right. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that "Ask Jeeves" was trying to kill themselves...<br />Remember not to take things out of context.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-12886394896562152532010-03-19T15:09:19.526-05:002010-03-19T15:09:19.526-05:00first of all, I want to say I agree with #37. mayb...first of all, I want to say I agree with #37. maybe a mandatory class is too much, and it for sure is unrealistic, but there should be possibilities to do such things.<br /><br />if the only justification for a class is its future usability, then we could easily fit in algorithms instead of art - or are more than one in 50 pupils going to be artists? don't get me wrong, it's for sure good to have art classes, but the reasoning is not supported by the school system.<br />i want to push this even further: who of you thinks positive about airport security - don't blame me for it, but my stereotypical opinions make me believe that many who say education for 1/50 is useless agree to have security for one in a billion. Yeah, terrorism is taking lives, but, metaphorically speaking, so does unemployment.Silly Freakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09963238585847993157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-81341548847333517802010-01-13T14:14:31.137-06:002010-01-13T14:14:31.137-06:00We did not invent the algorithm. The algorithm con...We did not invent the algorithm. The algorithm consistently finds Jesus. The algorithm killed Jeeves. <br />The algorithm is banned in China. The algorithm is from Jersey. The algorithm constantly finds Jesus.<br />This is not the algorithm. This is close.<br />this refers to googles indexing algorithm, Jesus being one of the most searched words ever, ask Jeeves was once the best search engine, but then google overtook them, google has been banned in china for some reason(government).Tskunenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-75598434249187047522007-12-16T19:55:00.000-06:002007-12-16T19:55:00.000-06:00Responding to 30: Yes, and maybe we could offer pr...Responding to 30: Yes, and maybe we could offer programming/algorithms as elective courses. I for one (and I realize I may be in the minority here) wish that I was exposed to more advanced concepts as an elementary schooler. For those of us who feel as I do, the option should be available.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-89986328357714969132007-06-16T07:29:00.000-05:002007-06-16T07:29:00.000-05:00FFS! It's 'their' not there you dolt!FFS! It's 'their' not there you dolt!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-80211968576431851722007-06-14T19:05:00.000-05:002007-06-14T19:05:00.000-05:00Or:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livecoding"Live co...Or:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livecoding<BR/><BR/>"Live coding (sometimes known as interactive programming, on-the-fly programming, just in time programming) is the name given to the process of writing software in realtime as part of a performance. Historically, this technique has been around since computers were used to produce early computer art, but recently it has been explored as a more rigorous alternative to laptop DJs who, live coders often feel, lack the charisma and pizzazz of musicians performing live."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-67033566789588587252007-06-03T09:42:00.000-05:002007-06-03T09:42:00.000-05:00Or this:http://scratch.mit.edu/videosOr this:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://scratch.mit.edu/videos" REL="nofollow">http://scratch.mit.edu/videos</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-83602196826453053602007-06-03T03:58:00.000-05:002007-06-03T03:58:00.000-05:00For self-expression, maybe we should go back to te...For self-expression, maybe we should go back to teaching kids LOGO on trash-80's...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-2872444599033828822007-06-02T19:38:00.000-05:002007-06-02T19:38:00.000-05:00"I'm sorry, programming as a medium for self-expre...<I>"I'm sorry, programming as a medium for self-expression? A society of programmers?<BR/><BR/>This must be a joke, right?"</I><BR/><BR/>No joke. Here's an example:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://web.genarts.com/karl" REL="nofollow">http://web.genarts.com/karl</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-14408302090599164642007-06-02T19:27:00.000-05:002007-06-02T19:27:00.000-05:00If you view programming as a medium for self-expre...<I>If you view programming as a medium for self-expression -- rather than merely a way to solve other people's problems -- then it becomes more obvious that this is an important skill for everyone to have.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, programming as a medium for self-expression? A society of programmers? <BR/><BR/>This must be a joke, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-81574465074440071412007-06-02T19:24:00.000-05:002007-06-02T19:24:00.000-05:00Responding to #29 primarily, though relevant to th...Responding to #29 primarily, though relevant to the whole discussion of education.<BR/><BR/>In order to excel at any given task there must exist a disposition towards that task. People, simply put, are not identically inclined to all ideas, even when those ideas are articulated using generic language. <BR/><BR/>The phrase 'programming as a medium of self-expression' has very little value to me. It could be argued that such is the case because of my limited exposure to programming, or it could be argued that my inclinations simply prevent me from accepting that idea.<BR/><BR/>In truth, my father was extremely fluent in these fields and did his best to introduce me to rudimentary programming from a young age as well as more advanced concepts in math. He taught me well considering that I've been extremely proficient at those tasks when required of me, but I still loathe doing it. I do not consider it a form of self-expression, no matter how I was raised.<BR/><BR/>My point is that you can't say, "Well, if you teach it this way it will magically appeal to everyone!" That is an extremely inept statement. Now, you can qualify and say, "Well, it will appeal to more than 1 in 49." That's slightly more fair, but one must be realistic. Even at a marginally better ratio, the cost of implementing this new education and schooling education professionals in teaching the material outweighs the benefit to 'future research' that might be gained.<BR/><BR/>For that matter, I think it's important to avoid field bias. Not everyone can or should be a mathematician or programmer. I am very happy that many of you love the field you're working in, but please stop absurdly believing that your fascination makes it more worthwhile in terms of what people can do. This, to me, is the fundamental problem with my opponents on this board.<BR/><BR/>At any rate, I hope you are all well and pray that you take this comment in the light it was meant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-68564399923319640962007-06-02T18:03:00.000-05:002007-06-02T18:03:00.000-05:00"If one were to introduce algorithms and programmi...<I>"If one were to introduce algorithms and programming to young children, I imagine that it would end up benefiting 1 child for every 49 that it confuses the hell out of (or ends up being completely useless for)."</I><BR/><BR/>If you view programming as a medium for self-expression -- rather than merely a way to solve other people's problems -- then it becomes more obvious that this is an important skill for everyone to have.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-2620190784719766212007-06-02T17:18:00.000-05:002007-06-02T17:18:00.000-05:00#24, such an education would be great for those wh...#24, such an education would be great for those who will become researchers in the future, but unfortunately this set represents an extremely small subset of the population. If one were to introduce algorithms and programming to young children, I imagine that it would end up benefiting 1 child for every 49 that it confuses the hell out of (or ends up being completely useless for). The same could be said to #19 for wishing that we would teach proofs in elementary school.<BR/><BR/>Face it, teaching sorting algorithms to children would be pointless and wasteful. I am glad for the optimism of D. Sivakumar, but I am also glad he does not have a hand in educating our children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-79284234862044193572007-06-02T15:22:00.000-05:002007-06-02T15:22:00.000-05:00I just read/skipped/slogged through "Kindergarten ...I just read/skipped/slogged through "Kindergarten Quantum Mechanics"<BR/>http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0510032<BR/>referenced facetiously in a previous comment. Here are some completely raw observations on these lecture notes, which may help you decide whether you want to slog through it yourself:<BR/><BR/>- Pretty colors (especially when seen on a Mac ;-)<BR/>- The "picture calculus" does unify some concepts from linear algebra and QM in a nifty way, and for that it may have value as a mnemonic aid for people studying quantum information.<BR/>- Teach it to kindergarteners? No way. There's way too much complexity hidden behind the "simple" rules for manipulating the pictures.<BR/><BR/>There have been off-again/on-again arguements on the FOM (Foundations Of Math) list---and obviously other places---about how to teach math to youngsters. One particularly flame-scorched debate pitted proponents of category theory against those of the more traditional set theory.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05577571378264475361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-23155202077320028732007-06-02T14:00:00.000-05:002007-06-02T14:00:00.000-05:00I would like to publicly say that I have learned m...I would like to publicly say that I have learned more from the comments of D. Sivakumar and Ken Regan than almost everyone else put together on this blog. #20: your comment was poor etiquette, at best, and I hope it does not discourage DS from continuing to post.<BR/><BR/>The posts and comments most valuable to me are those that follow scientific method -- conclusions drawn from facts and analysis. That is the algorithm :-) I try to use when I comment here, and I wish others used it more often, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-35291403891933418512007-06-02T08:05:00.000-05:002007-06-02T08:05:00.000-05:00#22Still algorithms can be taught as a part of mat...#22<BR/>Still algorithms can be taught as a part of mathematics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-14400225386954639582007-06-02T07:59:00.000-05:002007-06-02T07:59:00.000-05:00I agree with D. Sivakumar (15), also introducing e...I agree with D. Sivakumar (15), also introducing earlier is good for the subject too, - (in terms of) both quality and quantity of future researchersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-39916586609563416792007-06-02T03:43:00.000-05:002007-06-02T03:43:00.000-05:00Anonymous #5: I guess you've never seen this paper...Anonymous #5: <BR/><BR/>I guess you've never seen this paper: <BR/><BR/>http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0510032<BR/><BR/>You're never too young to be exposed to strongly compact closed categories.<BR/><BR/>Then again, maybe the author <I>is</I> on crack...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-50401015222338289802007-06-02T01:35:00.000-05:002007-06-02T01:35:00.000-05:00I agree strongly with #14. #7: "You need a more a...I agree strongly with #14. <BR/><BR/>#7: "You need a more advanced math background than most primary schoolers can be expected to have to cover those things. On the other hand, not much background is needed for basic programming (and in fact, some young kids do learn to program, just not in school)."<BR/><BR/>It isn't all that advanced. I think the limited time is better spent progressing towards learning that math. I don't see the point in learning toy algorithms prematurely, since unlike the math it doesn't lead into any progression.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-44614263253194441712007-06-02T01:30:00.000-05:002007-06-02T01:30:00.000-05:00#14 here. I am not saying that these topics shoul...#14 here. I am not saying that these topics <I>should not</I> be taught at a young age, but rather that it would be extremely difficult to add them to the curriculum to any significant degree. You all are being so defensive about this, it's almost childish. Didn't the failures of New Math teach you guys anything?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-17872456045807111402007-06-01T21:32:00.000-05:002007-06-01T21:32:00.000-05:00How I wish "theoretical computer scientist" simply...How I wish "theoretical computer scientist" simply meant "NOT the rude know-it-all D. Sivakumar" ..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-80601268595174643092007-06-01T21:18:00.000-05:002007-06-01T21:18:00.000-05:00You guys sound like those mathematicians who belie...<I>You guys sound like those mathematicians who believe that we should be teaching children about set theory and proofs. Sorry to say, it just won't work!</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, can you say why not? Rigorous mathematics is something I wish I'd been exposed to as a child. It's a subject area that builds a lot of critical thinking, and I don't know why my teachers never exposed it to me until college.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-25447909697949276002007-06-01T20:53:00.000-05:002007-06-01T20:53:00.000-05:00As a follow up to the "human computer" suggestion,...As a follow up to the "human computer" suggestion, note that you can build this within the framework of human computation games such as the ESP Game.<BR/><BR/>In this case, each function described by high-level English along with the input can be viewed as a two-player game.<BR/><BR/>As with the ESP Game, when two players agree on the output, they would then move on to the next function (possibly from a different program).<BR/><BR/>Another possibility is to teach programming via Game Maker:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1297314" REL="nofollow">http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1297314</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-28108395817894916792007-06-01T20:33:00.000-05:002007-06-01T20:33:00.000-05:00As a theoretical computer scientist, I would have ...<I>As a theoretical computer scientist, I would have to say that adding... algorithms to the curriculum for primary schoolers would be disastrous. </I><BR/><BR/>Could Anons 4, 5 and 14 as well as Siv please explain what exactly they think the <B>algorithm</B> for multiplication from primary school is, if not, as hinted so delicately in its name an ALGORITHM????<BR/><BR/>Students cover algorithms in elementary school. According to people who do educational math this is a very important component of the math curriculum. <BR/><BR/>Now, me thinks that what they really meant by "algorithms/programming" is actually programming alone. <BR/><BR/>Would this be a good thing? Perhaps, so long as the language of choice is logo- or mindstorms-like (i.e. allowing the student to focus on the routines instead of the syntax).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-19511917305326071352007-06-01T20:28:00.000-05:002007-06-01T20:28:00.000-05:00CS topics have been done successfully in elementar...CS topics have been done successfully in elementary school. For example, see the following <A HREF="http://www.c3.lanl.gov/mega-math/papers/compsci.ps" REL="nofollow"> report by Mike Fellows</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com