tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post1022697361105747430..comments2024-03-28T18:17:00.135-05:00Comments on Computational Complexity: Should you quit Twitter and Texas?Lance Fortnowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06752030912874378610noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-44140345071403886102022-11-27T10:32:15.411-06:002022-11-27T10:32:15.411-06:00It might be good to first agree on principles we a...It might be good to first agree on principles we are going to make decisions, before trying to apply them up various situations.<br /><br />One that has come up multiple times above is consequences, danger to live. In these cases, we should not look only at the aggregate impact, but also at any particular group that might be adversely affected, even if they are a small minority.<br /><br />Another is morality and duty and values. There, as a membership organization, we should focus on values that we have consensus on. Else this is going up lead to infighting, and the state we see in the US politics. We should not impose our modality, beyond what is legal, on the other members of our community. <br /><br />If you think about this in game theoretic sense, for long term, it is harmful to coerce others even if in short term it might look beneficial to whatever goals we have. It destroys the fabric of the group and leads to polarization and us vs. them mentality. <br /><br />Where people have feel concerns of safety, we can take extra measures to help them, e.g. we can have an emergency fund to quickly get people out of Texas if needed, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-71394043772985055072022-11-09T12:17:18.437-06:002022-11-09T12:17:18.437-06:00As a person of color, I would feel much safer atte...As a person of color, I would feel much safer attending a conference in Houston or Dallas than attending a conference in places like Seattle or Portland. Not only are Houston and Dallas significantly more diverse, but Seattle and Portland are located in states that harbor white supremacist organizations, to the point where Oregon was literally founded to exclude people of color.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-55825615154655049082022-11-06T19:22:50.001-06:002022-11-06T19:22:50.001-06:00I believe mortality data is often not available fo...I believe mortality data is often not available for several months, especially in any kind of complete form. Also, someone's health can be damaged by failing to obtain an abortion even if they don't die. For example, if you look at the links in the comment above, you'll see that *most* abortions which are performed for reasons of physical safety are not due to life-threatening complications. In general I think pregnancy can come with many risks that are not usually fatal but still serious. It seems wrong to neglect such cases if you are trying to argue that the danger is relatively small.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-32949177568139509972022-11-06T19:19:32.450-06:002022-11-06T19:19:32.450-06:00@David Marcus: fair enough. I think I conflated yo...@David Marcus: fair enough. I think I conflated you with some of the other commenters on this blog post who seemed to be arguing that conferences should not be held in Texas primarily due to concerns over physical safety.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-40365453126822384382022-11-06T14:50:51.055-06:002022-11-06T14:50:51.055-06:00I did not mean to imply that one should give a pre...I did not mean to imply that one should give a pretend reason.David Marcushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07084520656051241766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-17848228401573566822022-11-06T14:49:03.622-06:002022-11-06T14:49:03.622-06:00When my wife and I go to a museum, we always go to...When my wife and I go to a museum, we always go to the gift shop. Sometimes we go to the gift shop first. Sometimes we go to the gift shop and skip the museum.David Marcushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07084520656051241766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-77577756436993713802022-11-06T14:42:03.984-06:002022-11-06T14:42:03.984-06:00All of this discussion reminds me of two relevant ...All of this discussion reminds me of two relevant points (maybe) and one irrelevant one<br /><br />1) On the TV show `The Good Place' (which is Heaven) the character Eleanor is pondering how actions on earth gain or loser you the points you need to get into The Good Place. She says:<br /><br />There is this chicken sandwitch that, if you eat it, it means you hate Gay people. But it tastes so good!<br /><br />2) There is an app called buy-partisan<br /><br />http://buypartisan.com/<br /><br />which can tell you which companies give money to which causes. I suspect if you got it and tried to use it, you would end up not buying anything. <br /><br />My point is that these decisions can be hard. Where to you draw the line? <br /><br />3) (Irrelevant) My Favorite line on `The Good Place'<br /><br />Michael: In the bad place there is a museum of torture.<br /><br />Jason: Do they have a gift shop?<br /><br />Michael: Its Hell. Of course they have a gift shop. gasarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03004932739846901628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-60320892932554485442022-11-06T13:49:28.165-06:002022-11-06T13:49:28.165-06:00I am not sure this elaborate calculation is needed...I am not sure this elaborate calculation is needed. It's been a while since Roe was pulled under the assumption that people still get pregnant in Texas, and that data is collected by media or otherwise on fatalities caused by not having access to abortion (or just in general the fatality rate during pregnancy), we should already have pretty good statistics. I have an unsubstantiated feeling that if there had been an increase in fatality we would have heard about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-11488366681178379852022-11-06T11:17:29.467-06:002022-11-06T11:17:29.467-06:00Notice that the chance of a hurricane hitting Miam...Notice that the chance of a hurricane hitting Miami during a 7 day period is *orders of magnitude* higher than the chance of a pregnant woman needing an abortion for reasons of physical safety during a 7 day period: 3.5% vs 0.0026% according to the calculations above. So the question is not "is a hurricane equally likely to affect health as not being able to get a medically indicated abortion" but rather "is it at least 1/1000 times as likely." To me, that seems plausible. Or at least plausible that they are the same order of magnitude. Also note that medically indicated abortions *are* legal in states like Texas and so to really estimate the risk you need to come up with some estimate of the likelihood that a hospital won't perform a medically necessary and technically legally allowed abortion because of abortion law ( I realize this is a real concern people have and I don't mean to belittle it, but I am also not sure exactly how likely this is).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-88383422510030458132022-11-06T11:12:28.354-06:002022-11-06T11:12:28.354-06:00@David Marcus: perhaps political statements are im...@David Marcus: perhaps political statements are important. But it seems somewhat disingenuous to argue for making a political statement while pretending that you are purely concerned about physical safety.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-91606422844099985522022-11-06T11:11:25.557-06:002022-11-06T11:11:25.557-06:00I'm curious why conferences in Texas involve m...I'm curious why conferences in Texas involve more air travel than conferences in most other states. Or perhaps you meant "count me as against any in-person conferences."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-24586189393037841982022-11-06T11:10:01.128-06:002022-11-06T11:10:01.128-06:00That's a fair point. On the other hand, there ...That's a fair point. On the other hand, there are many differences between states regarding legal availability of medications for reasons other than abortion law. I have never seen someone argue that a conference should not be held in a particular state for such reasons, so I am skeptical that this is really the main reason in this case (rather than political views on abortion).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-24333006115542647832022-11-06T04:18:08.023-06:002022-11-06T04:18:08.023-06:00It seems like people wish to be inclusive on certa...It seems like people wish to be inclusive on certain points that are politically fashionable, while at the same time are perfectly fine with excluding other groups. As a concrete example, in the last STOC business meeting it was a rather popular opinion that people with children should not be accommodated at all: if they wish to attend conferences and bring the children with them, it's their responsibility, and the conference should make zero effort to help them, e.g. by choosing a children-friendly venue. There are more examples I can think of, but this is the most recent one.<br /><br />It is unfortunate that the word *inclusiveness* is reserved to only a small number of political aspects. As a community we should do better than that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-7968708713851491042022-11-06T01:19:52.398-06:002022-11-06T01:19:52.398-06:00To all the commenters who are taking pride for bei...To all the commenters who are taking pride for being inclusive and pro human rights, organising conferences in US already excludes a lot of people from Iran and many other countries. And US is absolutely a dangerous place regarding gun violence. Why do you support organising conferences in US then? For the selfish reason of your own convenience? Bunch of hypocrites you are. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-41514041276537328572022-11-05T19:48:39.401-05:002022-11-05T19:48:39.401-05:00The right question to ask is: How dangerious is it...The right question to ask is: How dangerious is it to have a conference in Texas. I am not going to answer that question. However, I am going to point out that its not just <br /><br />Women who are pregnant having complications while at the conference.<br /><br />The state laws have had a chilling effect on medications for things that have nothing to do with pregnancy. See this article:<br /><br />https://www.reuters.com/world/us/state-abortion-bans-prevent-women-getting-essential-medication-2022-07-14/<br /><br /><br />gasarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03004932739846901628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-11406588864633672912022-11-05T18:13:03.110-05:002022-11-05T18:13:03.110-05:00I would like to add that I agree with Lance. And i...I would like to add that I agree with Lance. And it is unfortunate that I feel the need to post this anonymously, since I feel the probability that my job would be in danger by revealing my name is orders of magnitude higher than the probability that a women attending a CS conference in Texas suddenly needs an abortion but can't leave the state.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-22823508384818191382022-11-05T08:01:24.723-05:002022-11-05T08:01:24.723-05:00Certainly. The question is who's the one decid...Certainly. The question is who's the one deciding on the political agenda to promote. Many people (probably majority of humanity) are hostile to the US politics. Shall we ban the US from hosting conferences then?Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-84106840758912858222022-11-05T06:49:42.177-05:002022-11-05T06:49:42.177-05:00Just a point of order: the problem with medical ca...Just a point of order: the problem with medical care in Texas is not just a problem for pregnant women, it's a problem for women of childbearing age, since a fairly wide range of treatments that are seen as the normal standard of care may not available in Texas; anything that might interfere with a possible pregnancy may be unavailable, and that includes things from dermatology to cancer care. (I've written this with "may", but these problems are actually occurring. It's not nice.)<br /><br />But to get back to the original question, as someone who has never used Twitter, I assure you, you can live without it.<br /><br />Count me as against conferences in Texas. Simply because air travel involves too much CO2 emission. (I am guilty of this sin, though. An AI conference in Texas in 1983 or so. It wasn't as crazy as I expected, but that was mostly because it was Austin.)<br />DJLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04036156397398405817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-58250781543613313402022-11-04T21:31:09.687-05:002022-11-04T21:31:09.687-05:00> It sounds more like a political statement to ...> It sounds more like a political statement to me, to be honest.<br /><br />Sometimes political statements are important.David Marcushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07084520656051241766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-24540656524392518912022-11-04T17:17:00.452-05:002022-11-04T17:17:00.452-05:00Having a hurricane hit nearby and being unable to ...Having a hurricane hit nearby and being unable to obtain a medically necessary abortion are not even remotely comparable. Loss of life and long term health effects from hurricanes are pretty minimal, you can go look it up if you want. They do destroy a lot of property, but as a conference visitor, that's not really your concern.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-52783780572059749782022-11-04T11:32:43.513-05:002022-11-04T11:32:43.513-05:00I would support Zoom conferences where I don't...I would support Zoom conferences where I don't need to spend over $1,000 to share my research with others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-10663614334412814542022-11-04T11:30:37.695-05:002022-11-04T11:30:37.695-05:00Are conference in China ok and very successful for...Are conference in China ok and very successful for some reason?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-8495634610030400172022-11-04T10:13:51.127-05:002022-11-04T10:13:51.127-05:00I don't think that banning Texas and Russia fr...I don't think that banning Texas and Russia from hosting conferences is inclusive. It literally excludes people who work in that regions, which is much less inclusive than increasing the risk of pregnant participants by 0.0026%. It sounds more like a political statement to me, to be honest.Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-72346076713032388612022-11-04T09:51:18.400-05:002022-11-04T09:51:18.400-05:00So you believe that by making a conference more da...So you believe that by making a conference more dangerous for most attendees (and less dangerous for none), it becomes more morally acceptable? To me that seems strange but I think this is also a place where moral intuitions genuinely differ.<br /><br />Also, most conferences are already more dangerous for some than others. For example, pregnant women in later stages of pregnancy are often encouraged not to travel in case it causes complications for the pregnancy (e.g. early labor). So traveling to the conference is more risky for them than for other attendees. Should all conferences be held on zoom to avoid this difference in risk?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722233.post-26565184160833332122022-11-04T06:23:03.337-05:002022-11-04T06:23:03.337-05:00The point isn't absolutely dangerousness. A hu...The point isn't absolutely dangerousness. A hurricane in Miami has for every attendee the same chance of hitting, perhaps only influenced by how long they're in Miami. But a conference in Russia or Texas makes it more dangerous for some of the attendees based on their sexual orientation (gay/trans) or gender (women) due to the politics in those jurisdictions than for others (straight, male).<br /><br />That's what makes all the difference. That's the difference between being inclusive, or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com